Considerations when building a home tropical greenhouse (+20°С)

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Mik
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Re: Домашна тропическа оранжерия с мин. ср. темп. +20°С

Непрочетено мнение от Mik » 26 яну 2016, 08:40

If you did not filled the floor of the greenhouse with cement you can try to escavate at least a portion of it by a 1.5 / 2 meters so you can fit your palms as they grow. You not only gonna create a cold sink that will improve thermal management and get to extract some heat from the underground but you also have a place to install a small stove to heat it in the nights.



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Kiril Donov
Engineer-agronomist, Master in Tropical and Subtropical Agriculture (Инженер-агроном, Магистър по Тропично и Субтропично Земеделие), founder of Nursery Palm Center - Plovdiv, Bulgaria
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USDA zone: 7b/8a
Абсолютна минимална t° (°C): -15.2 since 1995
Минимум последна зима (°C): -5.8 (March 1, 2018)
Любимо растение: Кокосова палма, Cocos nucifera
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Re: Домашна тропическа оранжерия с мин. ср. темп. +20°С

Непрочетено мнение от Kiril Donov » 26 яну 2016, 09:37

Cold sink?
This will be a tropical greenhouse. Any temperature below +18 degrees Celsius should be extremely rare, so there will be no cold there. The soil will be as warm as possible and the cold could not accumulate there either.


Durian addicted (Durian is the King of all fruits)

Mik
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Надморска височина (m): 250
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Re: Домашна тропическа оранжерия с мин. ср. темп. +20°С

Непрочетено мнение от Mik » 26 яну 2016, 11:10

Cold sink is where cold air goes. Keeping the temperature heavenly stable is quite hard.. if there is cold...whenever your cold is 15 degrees or 20 below zero, that cold will descend down in the sink. it actually helps to keep plants above warm.
Planting your palms into a big insulated container will allow you to bring them down the cold sink when they are bigger...allowing more space for vertical growing without sacrifice your view.

Also getting 12 degrees out of the earth.

You can even use part of it to add biomass realising heat or thermal mass as clay and zeolite to store heat from your heating system or the excess heat from the daytime.
Why letting your heat out when right temperature is reached. Pump it trough a mass to store it.



Потребителски аватар
Kiril Donov
Engineer-agronomist, Master in Tropical and Subtropical Agriculture (Инженер-агроном, Магистър по Тропично и Субтропично Земеделие), founder of Nursery Palm Center - Plovdiv, Bulgaria
Мнения: 11807
Регистриран: 09 авг 2009, 12:48
Район: Асеновград (над инверсиите)
Местоположение: Assenovgrad (above inversions!)
Надморска височина (m): 395
USDA zone: 7b/8a
Абсолютна минимална t° (°C): -15.2 since 1995
Минимум последна зима (°C): -5.8 (March 1, 2018)
Любимо растение: Кокосова палма, Cocos nucifera
Любим плод: Durian - The King of all fruits
Любим климат: Екваториален (Humid Equatorial)
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Re: Домашна тропическа оранжерия с мин. ср. темп. +20°С

Непрочетено мнение от Kiril Donov » 28 яну 2016, 12:10

I know what you mean. But I've already decided not to do it like that now. I will use the idea when we start to build the bigger tropical greenhouse at the nursery.
By the way, if you read my post again, you will see that I focus alot on the ground heating and this is something very important for a tropical type of greenhouse. The soil will be warmer than the surrounding air, so no cold air sink should be possible.


Durian addicted (Durian is the King of all fruits)

Mik
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Considerations when building a home tropical greenhouse (+20°С)

Непрочетено мнение от Mik » 14 юли 2016, 16:29

Nice to see some progress. Can you give us a general overview of the prices. Probably incorporating in your project some ready structure would had cut prices and time...but I really have no clue about glazing and metal frame in BG.

I have to find myself a 50/100sqm high insulated greenhouse to rent or a quick and cheap solution to build.



Потребителски аватар
Kiril Donov
Engineer-agronomist, Master in Tropical and Subtropical Agriculture (Инженер-агроном, Магистър по Тропично и Субтропично Земеделие), founder of Nursery Palm Center - Plovdiv, Bulgaria
Мнения: 11807
Регистриран: 09 авг 2009, 12:48
Район: Асеновград (над инверсиите)
Местоположение: Assenovgrad (above inversions!)
Надморска височина (m): 395
USDA zone: 7b/8a
Абсолютна минимална t° (°C): -15.2 since 1995
Минимум последна зима (°C): -5.8 (March 1, 2018)
Любимо растение: Кокосова палма, Cocos nucifera
Любим плод: Durian - The King of all fruits
Любим климат: Екваториален (Humid Equatorial)
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Re: Домашна тропическа оранжерия с мин. ср. темп. +20°С

Непрочетено мнение от Kiril Donov » 15 юли 2016, 05:18

The basic price is 35-40 Euro per sq.m. But it all depends on your specific project, so the price could be easily doubled or tripled. For a small greenhouse is better not to try to adapt the ready-made Duch elements. According to my experience.


Durian addicted (Durian is the King of all fruits)

Mik
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Местоположение:
Надморска височина (m): 250
USDA zone: 7a/7b
Абсолютна минимална t° (°C): -20
Любим климат: subtropical
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Re: Домашна тропическа оранжерия с мин. ср. темп. +20°С

Непрочетено мнение от Mik » 16 юли 2016, 10:36

What are you goin to use for glazing? There are now some really performant new developped polycarbonate in Italy. At least for the roof, as you may find cheap glass chambers here in BG.

Do you think those big factories as Profilink do take privates orders if large? It seems that once you get to a reseller price litterally explodes.



Потребителски аватар
Kiril Donov
Engineer-agronomist, Master in Tropical and Subtropical Agriculture (Инженер-агроном, Магистър по Тропично и Субтропично Земеделие), founder of Nursery Palm Center - Plovdiv, Bulgaria
Мнения: 11807
Регистриран: 09 авг 2009, 12:48
Район: Асеновград (над инверсиите)
Местоположение: Assenovgrad (above inversions!)
Надморска височина (m): 395
USDA zone: 7b/8a
Абсолютна минимална t° (°C): -15.2 since 1995
Минимум последна зима (°C): -5.8 (March 1, 2018)
Любимо растение: Кокосова палма, Cocos nucifera
Любим плод: Durian - The King of all fruits
Любим климат: Екваториален (Humid Equatorial)
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Re: Домашна тропическа оранжерия с мин. ср. темп. +20°С

Непрочетено мнение от Kiril Donov » 16 юли 2016, 16:14

Yes, price explodes ... I ordered everything from a specialized company. I paid a lot, but I didn't have any experience and that was my only choice. My greenhouse will be with glass and I already have it.
For more experienced people in metal works, I would recommend doing on their own. For people with no experience, a specialist is a must.


Durian addicted (Durian is the King of all fruits)

Mik
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Надморска височина (m): 250
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Абсолютна минимална t° (°C): -20
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Re: Домашна тропическа оранжерия с мин. ср. темп. +20°С

Непрочетено мнение от Mik » 17 юли 2016, 09:30

Obviously cutting and mounting profiles isn't that easy and you also need the machinery (but I suppose it worth buying and learning if you are planning large project or to expande)

In the other hand putting in place a glass chamber already on its profile frame is something a couple of person with minimum experience can do. And you probably end fitting them better insulated as most of windows they place is rendered completely worthless by fast and cheap fitting, lack of insulation, not cutting thermal bridges etc.

I've seen houses here where they spent a fortune in triple athermic glazing...and all around the windows it was almost open.

When you end to pay 2, 3 times the cost of heating for simple poor fitting it is really a rip off.

Did you considered thermal courtains or pannels for the night?



Потребителски аватар
Kiril Donov
Engineer-agronomist, Master in Tropical and Subtropical Agriculture (Инженер-агроном, Магистър по Тропично и Субтропично Земеделие), founder of Nursery Palm Center - Plovdiv, Bulgaria
Мнения: 11807
Регистриран: 09 авг 2009, 12:48
Район: Асеновград (над инверсиите)
Местоположение: Assenovgrad (above inversions!)
Надморска височина (m): 395
USDA zone: 7b/8a
Абсолютна минимална t° (°C): -15.2 since 1995
Минимум последна зима (°C): -5.8 (March 1, 2018)
Любимо растение: Кокосова палма, Cocos nucifera
Любим плод: Durian - The King of all fruits
Любим климат: Екваториален (Humid Equatorial)
Has thanked: 55 times
Been thanked: 83 times

Re: Considerations when building a home tropical greenhouse

Непрочетено мнение от Kiril Donov » 17 юли 2016, 15:11

I'm already a little desperate. The greenhouse should have been ready by the end of April, but it is far from ready even now. So, I'm not considering anything anymore, not for this year. I will be very happy just to have it covered and ready for the winter. I will get important results and conclusions during the winter. Then, eventually for the next season I may want to improve something. Thermal screens, cold sinks and so on - these all are options to consider for later on.

Mik написа:Obviously cutting and mounting profiles isn't that easy and you also need the machinery ...

I have lots of machinery, but I didn't have the experience. Now I already got it and I'm doing everything by myself.


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ентусиаст
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Re: Домашна тропическа оранжерия с мин. ср. темп. +20°

Непрочетено мнение от ентусиаст » 17 юли 2016, 23:31

Mik написа:
I've seen houses here where they spent a fortune in triple athermic glazing...and all around the windows it was almost open.

When you end to pay 2, 3 times the cost of heating for simple poor fitting it is really a rip off.
t?

Using a Bulgarian manufacturer is MISSION: HIT-AND-MISS. Huge discrepancy between what's been written on their webs ( they have it all and can make everything!) and reality ( crap and excuses, and some punic attempts to fix things which can procractistinate until you give up or take things in your hands!!). Best joinery and glazing in Bulgaria are the Italian SCIUKER ( perfection out of this world and a lovely, Italian speaking, lady running the office in Sofia) and FINSTRAL. Everything is put together in the factory and you do not have clueless people on- site scraching themselves whilst butchering your house.
Последна промяна от ентусиаст на 23 юли 2016, 02:22, променено общо 1 път.


" Never argue with a fool, onlookers might not be able to tell the difference."
M. T.

sent from my PRAVETZ

Mik
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Надморска височина (m): 250
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Re: Considerations when building a home tropical greenhouse

Непрочетено мнение от Mik » 20 юли 2016, 21:27

All I see here on my zone are Profilink wich I probably won't buy especially for doors and windows. But if you need large glazing with no moving parts it may be fair price to have a glass facade.

Then there is some turkish brand used by hotels which are better quality. For the rest fitting was always poor.

So I will have to bring them from Italy..along with someone to fit them :D
...while funny enough a couple of bulgarian brands are resold in Italy. I actually helped a company to get contacts. There is quite interest to get very cheap product to get better margin to resell them.

What is at least questionable here in Bulgaria is the difference of prices between standard windows and doors resold in big chain shops vs the very same product sold ny normal dogramata shops. I suppose they gonna make an impressive job with a 500%+ margin.



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